Listen to the Market to Build Trust with Kyle Hamer

Jacob Harmon: welcome back to another episode of trust cast, where we talk about what I believe to be the most important thing in business, and that is trust and building trust. And today I have Kyle hammer with me and he is the owner of hammer marketing group, and he's a marketing genius.

So I'm happy to have him on the show to teach us a little bit more about branding and marketing. How are you doing today, Kyle?

Kyle Hamer: I'm great today, Jacob. Thanks for that. Thanks for that introduction. Honored to be here.

People: Listen to the Market! [00:00:28]

‍Jacob Harmon: Well, I'm glad to have you here. And we haven't chatted a whole lot. We just barely started talking, but I can already tell that you really know your marketing. And so I'm really excited to kind of dive into that and see how we can use marketing as a tool to build trust. 

Kyle Hamer: man, that's a big box of questions. They're like, you know, trying to, trying to use marketing to create trust is, um, when you get it right, it's amazing. And when you get it wrong, will it becomes your sales prevention department.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah. Um, since you mentioned that, do you have any examples or case studies of maybe where it went wrong? And so we can see kind of some things to avoid? Yeah.

Kyle Hamer: well, I think, I think when it comes down to, to building trust, building trust is a by-product of. Doing what you say, right? It's, it's a little bit of the golden rule. And I think a lot of people over-complicate marketing and how they do things because they think it needs to be this gigantic intellectual puzzle that they're solving.

And it's really kind of some of the basic things. I grew up on a farm and on the farm and in the community I grew up in your handshake meant everything and your word meant everything. Right? So marketing in order to build trust is. Doing what you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it and,  delivering on the expectations of whoever's on the other side of that statement, you know, you think about organizations that have failed in that particular, um, that particular mechanism and that, that, that number could go on and on and on and on.

Um, think about, think about, uh, a product that you bought on Amazon that had  few reviews or a product that maybe you purchased off of eBay. And when it came, you're like, well, wait, this isn't matched the description or this doesn't match what I think. Thought that I was buying. And so, a big chasm there is as well, man, what I thought was gonna happen and what I actually got are not one in the same.

And so that confidence gap really creates challenges for people that want to do business with you again.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah. One of the things that I'm thinking about, and it's kind of just top of mind for me, because it's something that's happening right now is this whole fiasco with Facebook and WhatsApp, WhatsApp kind of positioned themselves as, what are the company who is end to end encrypted. Like we're going to keep your messages safe.

Then they got bought by Facebook and they said, Oh, we're not going to change that. We're not going to change that. And then just recently their privacy policy changed and people are going crazy about it. And, um, at the end of the day, like I think Facebook is claiming that, Hey, we're not changing anything really.

Like, we're still doing an end encryption and everything, but people have come to kind of distrust Facebook as a company that is just going to mine everybody's data. Right. And so. I think there's Facebook probably has a trust problem right now. And it's kind of being expanded over to WhatsApp because they bought them.

Kyle Hamer: You know, it's interesting when you talk about technology companies, that's one of the, one of the big challenges organizations have when you go through mergers and acquisitions is what made be great to get me here may not be the same things that make me great to get me there. And when you go through an M and a process, uh, specifically like what's happened in Facebook,  there's this, this, and it's between what the lawyers say.

We need to have what the market expects and what the shareholders need. And usually what happens when you're in these big, these big tech environments is the customer, right? The consumer. They're the person who loses, uh, and, and with Facebook and WhatsApp, you know, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product.

I'm sure you've, I'm sure you've heard that. The real, the real challenge here with Facebook and big tech is there's a shifting plate for what expectations are. And what I mean by that is, is go back to my statement of what got you. Here may not be what gets you there. Well, Facebook is also in a really big, um, punching battle with Apple over losing the ability to track certain things.

And they're upset with Google and their way they're permissioning and changing different things. And people are going well. Facebook's bad. They're  mining data, Facebook built a business based on having , access to these particular things. What changed was the market? The market said we're no longer interested in giving you as much access to us.

And when they did that, Apple responded, Google started to respond and Facebook's going, but, but, but wait,

Jacob Harmon: Our business is built on this.

Kyle Hamer: our business is built on the ability to access this. And so, you know, there's a difference between I don't trust Facebook to deliver communities or connections. Cause I think that's absolutely.

W what Facebook is designed around, but you flip it on its head and you look at well, how Facebook makes money and that distrust gets into, well, I'm not entirely sure how they make money in the way that they're doing things that makes me nervous. And since it's not transparent and I don't understand it, obviously you're doing something nefarious.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah. And I like that word transparent because I think that's one way to gain. A lot of trust is be transparent about your business model and about your practices. Um, I kind of follow this text-based closely and I'm on the Apple side of it personally. I'm like, yeah, let's protect our data. Um, but like at the end of the day, all Apple's really asking is be transparent.

Right? We're still gonna let you have access to that data. If the user says that you can, but we all, we already know that a lot of times those users are going to deny that data if they're given the, given the choice. And so it it's all about transparency and being willing to say, Hey, this is our business model.

This is how we make money. And if you're okay with that, and I think Google does a good job on the opposite end of the spectrum is they say, Hey, we give you a bunch of free services and we're also mining a lot of your data. But we'll get all the value you get from it. We give you free g-mail we give you free YouTube.

We give you all this stuff and in exchange for, yeah. We have access to a lot of your data so that we can sell ads against it. Right. And so I think it's just a difference of trying to be transparent and providing that value so that it's worth what you do. Thank you.

Kyle Hamer: Well, and I, and I think this is the part where, you know, you talk about trust and in marketing, this is where the market dynamics and what's happening culturally really matter in, in businesses, in making decisions. So what was right for, for Google when they rolled out, I mean, you get ads in your email. If you have a Gmail account from Google, I remember when that rolled out.

And I was so upset, I personally was upset because I'm like, you don't own the right to have space inside my email inbox. And at the time Hotmail was tagging stuff at the bottom. Everybody was looking for ways to make an extra buck inside an email fast forward, you know, and at the time it was kind of this new market and they're like, Oh, it'll go away.

It's no big deal. We didn't really understand what the value exchange was. That was happening. Well, fast forward. Uh, 20 years, not quite, but fast forward, 15 years, you've had Edward Snowden and, and releasing information. You've had the Wiki links, things that have happened. You have people being worried that that big tech is as big brothering them and, and search algorithm and classifying their, their, their messages.

And then you have, you know, culturally, this, this gigantic divide in American culture of red vs blue and conservative versus liberal and too much information versus leave me alone. And, and you get to a spot where. The country is fracturing and organizations are going, no, no, no, no, no. This is, this is the way it's always been.

We're just going to keep doing these things. They're not listening to the market, whether you're listening to the right side of the market or the left side of the market, is, is irrelevant. Being sensitive to what's happening around you is really, really important. I mean, um, think about if, if somebody was out selling hot dogs during the middle of the, um, Uh, Rodney King riots and in, in Los Angeles.

So it gets like real. Wow. That's a really great capitalistic idea. Here's there are people out here. They're, they're they're riding, they gotta be hungry. They probably need food. I'm going to go make a buck, probably very insensitive, not a good idea to do sure. You can make some money, but do you really want to do that?

And I think that a lot of technology companies. Have become tone deaf to listening to the market because they feel like, well with their algorithms and their brilliant engineers, they can control the narrative versus being sensitive to where, you know, where people are at in their space and trying to move through emotionally what they're willing to give up and not give up and, and, and navigate that relationship with the organization.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah. I like how you said it's, it's all about listening to the market. Right. And being able to, to understand how the market's feeling about things. And I feel like, I mean, we're talking about big companies right now. We're talking about Facebook and Apple, these huge behemoths. Um, and I feel like those companies sometimes have a harder time.

Adjusting course, it's almost like there's this huge ship. And just to turn that ship around is very, very hard. And sometimes smaller companies have, I have an advantage in these types of situations because they can pivot a lot quicker and they can, they can change a lot quicker. Um, but what are some ways that we can, we can look at the market and try to understand, understand the people side of it and try to be sensitive to what's happening around the world.

Kyle Hamer: if you've been in marketing any amount of time, you hear all the time people buy from folks that they like know and trust. Right. And if you look at the evolution of marketing marketing started with indirect sales and indirect sales, would somebody be knocking on your door? And the marketing part of direct sales was how do I get across that door threshold?

What the sales person said, how they communicated the, what it was that got them in the door that was marketing. And the direct sales would be how they were, you know, they were trying to convert well, fast forward, a hundred years, fast forward, 200 years marketing in its essence. Hasn't changed. Marketing's job has still about how do we get across the threshold?

How do we get people to invite us into their home or into their place of business so that we can help them understand what we do and how it will benefit their organization? Marketing gets confused with advertising. Well, I bought this ad. It should fix this, or marketing gets confused with a go to market strategy.

Your marketing gets fused with a lot of different things. It gets confused with a lot of different things because across the, the evolution of marketing it has been, um, it's been about moving from talking with. Someone to talking to many people back to now trying to have a conversation with the market.

So for smaller organizations, if you understand that context and you look at say your website pages, or you look at your emails and if your email or your, your, your, um, your communication with the market, if it's all about you, If it's all broadcast. If it's all billboards, ask yourself this question. When was the last time you sat down and thought, wow, that billboard really made me think I should call and talk to somebody right about that. It doesn't your you're not having conversation. Adam Mark, are you not having a conversation with the market? You're not having conversation with your audience. You're talking to somebody with a specific pain in a specific moment. And the number of those people are, are minute. You're spraying and praying.

You're showing up and throwing up.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah.

Kyle Hamer: If small businesses really want to succeed, they need to slow down, take a deep breath and listen to their customers. And what I mean by that is, is who's voting with their dollars and how not your customers that you have. That's on your, your, um, Oh, what do they call it?

Your customer advisory board or not your customers that you have that just came in and you think that they're going to be a gigantic behemoths? Like I just landed on Microsoft. No. Where does 80% of your business come from? How do they behave? What do they think about? What's important to them and, uh, really good example of this is, is in my, my little area here.

There's a. A cute retailer, my wife and I love going there that they do cupcakes in champagne. And the owner thought, Oh, I want to start a boutique and started adding clothes and necklaces and jewelry. And all of the sudden that I was talking with the owner and they were concerned with the drop in sales.

Well, they, they were mixing the messages. What people had fallen in love with and started coming to therefore was the flavor of the month cupcake and the new champagnes that they were doing on a regular basis. And the, the organization changed to add this boutique with the, you know, women's fashion. And it didn't make sense.

It no longer made sense to the customers that they had, but that's what the owner wanted to do. Small mid-sized businesses. Really can't afford to do things on a whim. They really need to listen to where their customers are at and what's important to them.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah. And it's all about the people, part of it, right? The listening, the being genuinely curious,

‍Process: Romance your Customer. [00:14:13]

before we jumped on this call, we were talking for just  a little bit, and you mentioned three kind of pillars of marketing people, process and technology. And so I think right now we're talking about that people piece, uh, and how you can, you can really just listen to your market and understand them and talk.

Talk with them in a, in a way that resonates with them. Um, but I love to talk also about the process and the technology part of marketing. And, let's, let's move into process first. 

Kyle Hamer: let me set that up just a little bit. So when you think about the people, there's really two sides to the people. There's the people that consume or buy your products and there's the people that help them make those decisions, get them there. And, and so when you think about the three pillars, the people is by far the most valuable, if you have, if you have, if you're targeting the wrong people with the wrong message, you're never going to sell anything.

If you have the wrong people trying to listen to the market and they're, know-it-alls, you're never going to sell anything. Right? so getting that mix of people is really, really important to helping a business be successful. , and you mentioned  you said being curious, being inquisitive and being passionate about somebody else's circumstance exceptional marketers will first seek to understand.

Before they ever seek to be understood.

Jacob Harmon: I love that so much. And it's interesting cause I've only done I've. I mean, we've only published at this 0.8 episodes of trust cast, and I've done a couple more interviews that are in the queue, but this topic keeps coming up. This topic of listening, be interested before, before you try to be interesting.

Try to try to understand. And so I think I can't understate how important that is because over and over and over again, that's what I'm hearing.

Kyle Hamer: Well in, in, in, in, in part of what listening is, and this leads into the second piece, which is process when you are. Passionately curious, when you are truly seeking to understand you are not only listening to what the, um, the prospects or the people potentially to buy your, your wares or service will be, but you're, you're introspective and looking and listening to the business, to the process.

Where is this person in their journey? What is it I do at this particular point? How do we make sure that they have a great experience? Um, one of the companies that is sneakily good at customer experience, and you don't even know it is Disney, Disney uses technology. They use, um, uh, whether it's wristbands bands or facial recognition, or they use different things in their experience so that when you show up, it's effortless to engage with Disney.

From the point, which you check in at the hotel to the point, which you do, you do rights, but everything behind that is built on their process and their process is all designed to make you have an effortless experience. If at any point it feels uncomfortable or hard. You're not going to spend as much money.

They've done studies to know that scientifically you're not going to spend as much if it, if it's frustrating to you even a little bit, So they've invested in their technology and their process on the back end to make it feel effortless. And so consequently, when people say it's the happiest place on the earth, it's that way by design.

Um, and, and so when you think about process, you know, I deal with a lot of B2B companies. People forget that. Hey, just because I fill out a form, what happens to that particular contact information? Where does it go? A lot of times your sales team, if you're in a B2B environment, your sales team isn't getting notified or leads are going into the, you know, the inner workings skeletons of your, of your company, nobody ever follows up on them.

Or if they do it's two to three weeks later. Well, there's countless studies that show that if a lead is followed up with an under five minutes, you have an 80% better chance of moving them to the next step. So you spend all this money, getting them to the first step and then your process, because you're not sales, isn't dogging to marketing and marketing is not necessarily listening to sales is busted.

You're wasting all of that effort because you're not looking at the process.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah. And I think the important thing to highlight here is that you're building this process to serve the customer. Um, I love that you were mentioning Disney and how, how the experience is good because of their processes. But I think too often as a business owner, you might think processes are about being efficient and saving me time and saving me money.

And it does. But I think you need to build those processes to make the experience for the end user and the end customer better. Um, because if the process is only serving the business, then the person might feel like they don't matter to you. And I've definitely been involved in those types of processes to where I feel like a number, or I feel like I'm just talking to a robot instead of a human being, because they have a great process that saves the company a lot of time and a lot of money.

But I don't actually feel like I'm being

Kyle Hamer: to a bank

Jacob Harmon: Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Hamer: right. or I'm sure there are, I'm sure there are millions of people right now. You've gone through, uh, the unemployment process or, or applying for additional benefits and you go to call and nobody's available. You feel like a cog in a wheel and there's not enough information.

You can't. Understand what you need to do in order to be successful in, in the, in the gap of knowledge, right? Not only do you fracture trust, but when there's a knowledge gap and there's an understanding gap, and you don't know what to do next, when there's that gap, there's an opportunity for somebody else to create their own story for them to tell the story about what you did to them or how you wronged them or how this wasn't okay.

Right. And it may not be your fault. But your process created that opportunity for them to craft their own narrative.

Technology: Make it Work for You [00:20:33]

‍Jacob Harmon: Yeah, well, it almost sounds to me like these three pillars that we're talking about are so intertwined because the process is meant to serve the people. And obviously the process is built on technology and different systems that make that process work. And so really it's just about creating that entire customer experience, that customer journey from the first time they ever hear about your company to being a loyal raving fan of your company and making sure that every piece of that is, is built correctly.

Kyle Hamer: Yeah.  One of the very first interviews that I ever gave on a podcast. Uh, Jacob, was, it was on the art of selling. Where is it that sales gets it wrong. And I said, you know, where I think sales falls apart is, is that they forget that selling is a romance. You don't walk up to somebody tomorrow and go, Hey, we, you marry me that there's this there's these these way points.

And there's these moments in, in your relationship. And as it evolves and develops where you have to meet certain thresholds to open the next door to go to the next stage, you go to the next phase. And for organizations when it comes to marketing and you talk about the three pillars, pillar, number one, or being about people, you've gotta be picking the right people to have a romance lit with, right?

It's like if otherwise you might end up being like in Nicole Smith and whoever her husband was, nobody remembers him other than he was a billionaire and causes all kinds of skepticism. But if you're really, truly intentional about, um, romancing your customer in your marketing and in your process, You'll find that the technology is actually effortless because you can't process something until you've done it as a person.

Right. I can't go automate something until I've experienced it. If, if you try and automate something before you've done it manually. Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna fail nine times out of 10. Why? Because you didn't get lucky, but if you do it manually and understand, Oh, this is the next step, and this is the next step.

And Ooh, we really created an ugly experience. And this was the response that, that customer or that prospect had. We should not do that again. When you go to deploy technology, now you're looking for technology. That supports you, that supports this experience. That's, hyper-focused on creating a customer experience.

That's intoxicating a customer experience that makes them fall in love with you, right? It's an in, and it doesn't have to be this over the top. Incredibly beautiful thing. Sometimes the most beautiful things are the most simple. Right. And you know, if you, if you try and automate, uh, a 37 step email campaign to a guy who just drinks beer and goes fishing, he's going to be like, I don't even have a cell phone and I don't read my email.

Like it's not going to work. However, if you figure out how to get that guy in and start romancing him with, Hey, you sent them a lure and then you send them a hook and then you send them the best guide to when to go fishing. And it came in the mail and yeah. Oh, here's a coupon for 30% off your favorite beer.

And then all of a sudden it was like, Hey, you want to buy our fishing pole for 1200 bucks. He's going to be in a much better space. For spending $1,200 on a fishing pole, because of all the things you did to, to speak to who he was to speak, what was important to him, that it feels like man, you know me, of course, of course, if you recommend that I need this fishing pole, then that's what I want to buy in.

And so I think that that's the part where organizations spend too much time. On technology is like, they want to automate everything they want to, we want to tag everything. They want to turn it into this, this beautiful algorithm in the back end. And the reality is, is just shut up and listen to your customer.

They'll tell you what they want you to do.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah, and I I'm as guilty as that as the next guy. I'm sure. it's kind of like, I I've heard it said like, uh, the shiny object syndrome, right. Or, Ooh, let's go over here. I'll let's do that. And I think that tech often and tools can become a distraction because it's fun. Like. Personally, I love learning a new tool and I love being able to play with like different automations and different technology.

And I think most marketers do, but at the end of the day, if there's no strategy behind that tool, or if there's no understanding of the target market, it's not going to do you much good. You know, you're just, you're just wasting time and spending your way.

Kyle Hamer: And, and I think that goes back to, you know, when we talked about the Stephen Covey seven principles of highly effective people for seek to understand than be understood. If you, excuse me, if you understand your customer. If you empathize with their situation, if you think about the logical steps that they need to take to overcome whatever the challenges that they're going through, if you truly understand that and your process, your process is set up between how you exchange between whether it's your e-commerce system in your, your back office for your, for your shipping and delivery or your sales and your marketing team, how that's all structured.

It feels effortless with technology. It's like, it's the reason I bring up Disney's cause most people don't think about, Oh, I've got this wristband and it's controlling my entire experience at Disney or it even understands who I am. But the reality is there's been so much effort by Disney in romancing.

You. In making your life feel effortless while you're there, because they want it to be the happiest place on earth. That technology isn't what you think about you don't think, Oh, I need to go interact with this kiosk. I, you don't think I need to go stop at this ATM you think, Oh, I would like to go buy a soda with your bracelet.

Oh, I would like to go. Get on this ride with a bracelet. Oh, this is a really cool interactive display. Hi Jacob. Welcome my name's Dory. Right? Like everything becomes this experience and you're like, Oh wow, that's really cool. And the magic is the technology underneath there. Anticipating what you're thinking of.

And what's important to you to do

Building Trust in Business [00:26:42]

‍Jacob Harmon: Yeah, I think at the end of the day, a lot of times, businesses and marketers think that catering to the end user. is going to bring down the bottom line of the company, but really does the exact opposite. just because you're taking care of them over and beyond.

they're like you said, they're more willing to spend money with you and spending money with you is less friction for them. And so at the end of the day, if you create an incredible customer experience yeah. That takes a lot of time. That takes a lot of effort, but the ROI is absolutely there.

Kyle Hamer: it is. The thing that I think is really important when you think about , these three are you think about building trust is, is trust doesn't happen immediately and it doesn't happen overnight. It's incrementally gained. And it can be lost in one small, simple choice.

And, the thing that I think about is, is there is ,  an internet marketer who I was listening to talk in the mid two thousands. So I think somewhere between 2006 and 2008, and the statement that this internet marketer had was he said, look, The most important thing to me for my business is my customer list.

It's so important to me that at the end of every week, I take the new people that have been added to my list and I walk it down to the bank and I put it in a safety deposit box. Not because I'm trying to secure anything, but because subliminally, I want to continue to tell myself. That this is the most valuable thing I have not the list, the people on the list.

And so that was just a really good visual to me. You're early on in my career, thinking about. Wow. Like the, the, the effort of it's a Friday, it's four 30. I've got to print out the 50 pages of new people I've got. And then I have to drive over to the bank, go all the way up to the teller. The teller has got to take me into the back, got to open up my safety deposit box and put them in and then come back on Monday and pick them up again like that.

Th th that level of effort and commitment to the customer meant that when it came to deciding, well, do I send five emails or seven emails this week? Or do I send one email and do I do a hundred phone calls this week? He was very intentional about what that meant for the relationship between his business and what he was trying to achieve, and those people on that list.

And. Um, you know, relationships, whether it's it's, um, it's between a business and a business or a husband and a wife or two friends, relationships are human to human. And so trust is built human to human person to person. You know, you could say skin on skin, but in today's digital age, it's, it's really experienced to experience.

And it, it, it doesn't take much. You know, look at, look at the division that we're facing in our country right now. Right? All right. After 35 posts that I don't agree with on Facebook delete, and I don't want to talk to you. I'm not taking your phone call the trust. I don't trust you. You're crazy. That trust is really, really, really hard to earn and it's really easy to get rid of.

And so I think it's important when businesses think about their, their marketing efforts to realize. You sometimes can do more damage than good. And one of the ways that I think is currently very grotesque in the market is what I'll call. A lot of people refer to it as pitch slapping. If you're on LinkedIn or you're in a Facebook group, somebody will pop into your, your instant message or your, your DM and they'll slide in and they'll be like, Hey, I do this word vomit. Well, I don't know you, I don't even know, like I, how do you know that I was looking for French fries with cheese sauce? I'm not like, as a matter of fact, I'm a vegan or what, you know, whatever, like it's, it's, it's so tone deaf that it creates a negative connotation towards your company. And in, in cases, like for, for the way that I consume or the way that I do businesses business, I won't work with somebody you show up in my inbox and you pitch slap me.

I am never working with your company. I don't care if you have the gold standard of whatever it is. And I just happened to be looking forward 20 years later, I will remember you sent me some dumb thing and that you showed up without me being like asking you or inviting you in and just started vomiting on me.

Like that's a terrible experience and breaks trust from the word jump.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah, you're speaking my language here, Kyle. I love it. I'm like, this is part of the whole reason I ever even started this podcast was because these types of things bug me so much. And so I just wanted an outlet to kind of vent about it and say, Hey, we should be better as business owners and as marketers.

So thank you. Thank you. Um, Well before we kind of wrap things up. Uh, is there anything related to marketing or branding or building trust that we haven't touched on that you think is absolutely essential to get out there?

Kyle Hamer: branding is more than arts and crafts. It's more than colors and logos. Your brand is who you are. So if your business is treating people like trash and it's showing up in your Google reviews, then you have a terrible brand. If your colors and website and things look amazing, but you can't deliver on the product side, you over promise and under deliver your brand is trash.

You can do all of the things to make your company look a beautiful and amazing and attractive. But if you fail to deliver. Your brand is trash and you really don't have to look very far. Google SoftBank, look at their acquisitions. Look at how we work behaved. Look at how Uber behaved. Look at the ways in which organizations literally were an extension of their brand.

You may not have seen it all. But as all of that stuff came to light. You see wasted money, you see gross abuse, you see a distrust amongst employees and a market. And so if you want to build trust, don't lie to yourself. Don't lie to your market and don't lie to your people. Be honest, if it's broken, fix it.

You may not fix it in one day. But putting a new logo and a can of spray paint on it. Like Uber did after they had the whole fiasco fallout with their CEO. Oh, we'll do a new logo and we'll change the way that we present. And we'll do some updates in our new brand is rolled out. That's a cut in colors that doesn't change who you are, make sure your culture is an extension of who you want to be and something that people will fall in love with.

Jacob Harmon: Yeah, well, I can't really add anything else to that. I'll just say mic drop because I agree a wholeheartedly. Uh, thank you so much for being on the show, Kyle, and let's talk a little bit about where people can find you. Obviously you have the hammer marketing group. Um, you do have the podcast, the summit podcast, I think is what it's called.

Right. Um, what else can people find you if they want to learn more about you or reach out to you for some help with marketing?

Kyle Hamer: Look, I think, um, finding guys like yourself, Jacob, who are, are passionate about great experience and building trust is a, is a good place to start. Not everybody needs to drive back to me. If you want to follow me, you can find me at Haimer marketing group. Um, it's hammer with one a like the guitar, uh,

Jacob Harmon: I've been saying hammer this whole time. Haven't  eye on, so, sorry.

Kyle Hamer: just don't call me late for dinner. All right, Jake. Um, so, so you can find me at Haimer marketing group, the summit podcast, um, and summit podcast, man. I, I can't tell you guys enough, uh, what a value that is. If you're an avid podcast listener, I do interviews like this. I find industry experts and leaders.

Um, we've, we've interviewed 10 Ted talk. I'm not 10 times 10 authors, five Ted talks, speakers. Um, we, we have people that are experts in LinkedIn marketing paper, click digital strategy, personal branding. Take, take a moment to help you reach the summit in your career. And that's why it's called the summit is, is it's it's interviews with people who are far smarter than I will ever be giving you insight on how to, you know, add a level up.

And if you're looking for weird random, Things to follow where where's my Headspace at today. I'm always picking on somebody or a specific topic on LinkedIn and it's a LinkedIn forward slash I think it's I N and then it's Kyle Haimer. K Y L E H a M E R a. That's the best places to find me. And you could shoot me a line to me, DM.

Um, I'm always wide open. If you're going to show up and throw up, though, we, you might end up on one. My LinkedIn posts.

Jacob Harmon: I love it. Well, thank you so much, Kyle. And we'll maybe we'll have to have you back sometime to talk about your experience with your podcast, because I am, we didn't even talk about podcasting, but I absolutely believe that there's so much value in podcasting. So thank you for being on this show. Go check out Kyle's podcast.

Go follow him on LinkedIn and thanks for listening to trust cast.

Kyle Hamer: Thanks for having me.

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